Re: ANSYS to ADAMS with Bonded Contact..

P
ptroxler@borgwarner.com
Mon, Jul 18, 2022 3:24 PM

Hello Jim,

Flexible bodies are "linear". They cannot have either non-linear material or geometry. Therefore, the flexible body is linearized about the operating point at which it is created.

So yes, the contact status will remain whatever it is when the flexible body is created. If bonded, it stays bonded. If active, whatever faces are open or closed stay open or closed. Ansys has some switches which control how to handle active contact in downstream linear processes. If I remember correctly they let you do things like force all contact pairs to be bonded, etc. Those switches may have utility for future applications.

Kind Regards,
 
Paul Troxler
Senior Staff Engineer
 
BorgWarner Turbo Systems
1849 Brevard Road
Arden, NC 28704
Tel: 828-650-7448
 
ptroxler@borgwarner.com

-----Original Message-----


Message: 4
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2022 15:14:35 +0000
From: "Patterson, James" jpatterson@hendrickson-intl.com
Subject: [Xansys] ANSYS to ADAMS with Bonded Contact...
To: XANSYS Mailing List Home xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
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Good Morning,

I regularly use ANSYS (classic) to create a “flex body” for use in ADAMS when performing multibody dynamics simulations.  To date, these have essentially been single components.  Recently, I have an assembly that needs to act as a single flex body once in ANSYS.  I’ve been RTFM-ing but can’t seem to find much regarding the rules for contact in this type of model.  I believe the behavior of the contact will be unchanged from whatever it finds initially, which is fine as bonded together will be acceptable.

Can someone point me in the right direction?  Anybody else tried this?

Thanks,

Jim

[cid:image001.png@01D89A97.5B640390]
James J. Patterson, PhD.
Principal Vehicle Systems Engineer
Trailer Commercial Vehicle Systems
2070 Industrial Place S.E.  Canton, OH 44707
ph. 330 489 0095  |  fax 330 489 1961
jpatterson@hendrickson-intl.commailto:jpatterson@hendrickson-intl.com
www.hendrickson-intl.com

The contents of this message may be privileged and confidential. Therefore, if this message has been received in error, please delete it without reading it. Your receipt of this message is not intended to waive any applicable privilege. Please do not disseminate this message without the permission of the author.
-------------- next part --------------

Hello Jim, Flexible bodies are "linear". They cannot have either non-linear material or geometry. Therefore, the flexible body is linearized about the operating point at which it is created. So yes, the contact status will remain whatever it is when the flexible body is created. If bonded, it stays bonded. If active, whatever faces are open or closed stay open or closed. Ansys has some switches which control how to handle active contact in downstream linear processes. If I remember correctly they let you do things like force all contact pairs to be bonded, etc. Those switches may have utility for future applications. Kind Regards,   Paul Troxler Senior Staff Engineer   BorgWarner Turbo Systems 1849 Brevard Road Arden, NC 28704 Tel: 828-650-7448   ptroxler@borgwarner.com -----Original Message----- ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2022 15:14:35 +0000 From: "Patterson, James" <jpatterson@hendrickson-intl.com> Subject: [Xansys] ANSYS to ADAMS with Bonded Contact... To: XANSYS Mailing List Home <xansys-temp@list.xansys.org> Message-ID: <CH2PR04MB667708D55589FA1BC098C795FF8C9@CH2PR04MB6677.nam prd04.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_CH2PR04MB667708 D55589FA1BC098C795FF8C9CH2PR04MB6677namp_"; type="multipart/alternative" Good Morning, I regularly use ANSYS (classic) to create a “flex body” for use in ADAMS when performing multibody dynamics simulations. To date, these have essentially been single components. Recently, I have an assembly that needs to act as a single flex body once in ANSYS. I’ve been RTFM-ing but can’t seem to find much regarding the rules for contact in this type of model. I believe the behavior of the contact will be unchanged from whatever it finds initially, which is fine as bonded together will be acceptable. Can someone point me in the right direction? Anybody else tried this? Thanks, Jim [cid:image001.png@01D89A97.5B640390] James J. Patterson, PhD. Principal Vehicle Systems Engineer Trailer Commercial Vehicle Systems 2070 Industrial Place S.E. Canton, OH 44707 ph. 330 489 0095 | fax 330 489 1961 jpatterson@hendrickson-intl.com<mailto:jpatterson@hendrickson-intl.com> www.hendrickson-intl.com The contents of this message may be privileged and confidential. Therefore, if this message has been received in error, please delete it without reading it. Your receipt of this message is not intended to waive any applicable privilege. Please do not disseminate this message without the permission of the author. -------------- next part --------------
CW
Christopher Wright
Mon, Jul 18, 2022 7:36 PM

On Jul 18, 2022, at 10:24 AM, ptroxler@borgwarner.com wrote:

Flexible bodies are "linear". They cannot have either non-linear material or geometry. Therefore, the flexible body is linearized about the operating point at which it is created.

Are 'flexible bodies' what once were known as 'substructures?' If so you can include  nonlinear elements with substructures to simulate such things as uplifting displacements from compression-only supports or contact between such things as adjoining objects which might rock towards each other and make contact. In a (long) past life I did a lot of transient analysis using substructures to model free-standing spent nuclear fuel storage racks. I only mention this as a sort of warning that convergence in this sort of analysis can be mighty slow—tiny changes have big effects. Rigid body motion (at least at the time) was really a huge pain in the butt, and I've always suspected that solutions for that sort of analysis weren't unique. Minor changes to check convergence produced all sorts of results. I've always likened it to trying to reproduce the motion of a ball bearing dropped on a concrete floor—tiny changes to such things as interface stiffness or gap opening made for wildly varying results. And the more cases you ran to hunt around for a converged solution the more different converged solutions you got. Just like real life.

I saw an analysis once to calculate the path of a moving bicycle starting with no steering input. Every run was different. Just like real life.

Christopher Wright P.E. (ret'd) |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen.
http://www.skypoint.com/members/chrisw/ | John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania (1864)

> On Jul 18, 2022, at 10:24 AM, ptroxler@borgwarner.com wrote: > > Flexible bodies are "linear". They cannot have either non-linear material or geometry. Therefore, the flexible body is linearized about the operating point at which it is created. Are 'flexible bodies' what once were known as 'substructures?' If so you can include nonlinear elements with substructures to simulate such things as uplifting displacements from compression-only supports or contact between such things as adjoining objects which might rock towards each other and make contact. In a (long) past life I did a lot of transient analysis using substructures to model free-standing spent nuclear fuel storage racks. I only mention this as a sort of warning that convergence in this sort of analysis can be mighty slow—tiny changes have big effects. Rigid body motion (at least at the time) was really a huge pain in the butt, and I've always suspected that solutions for that sort of analysis weren't unique. Minor changes to check convergence produced all sorts of results. I've always likened it to trying to reproduce the motion of a ball bearing dropped on a concrete floor—tiny changes to such things as interface stiffness or gap opening made for wildly varying results. And the more cases you ran to hunt around for a converged solution the more different converged solutions you got. Just like real life. I saw an analysis once to calculate the path of a moving bicycle starting with no steering input. Every run was different. Just like real life. Christopher Wright P.E. (ret'd) |"They couldn't hit an elephant at chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen. http://www.skypoint.com/members/chrisw/ | John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania (1864)
BA
Baker, Alan (E&PS)
Mon, Jul 18, 2022 10:11 PM

Are 'flexible bodies' what once were known as 'substructures?'

'Flexible bodies' are an ADAMS thing where you replace a normally rigid body with a stiffness/mass/modal representation of the part.  Being a Component Modal Synthesis representation, the body must be linear.  The interfaces with said body can be nonlinear.  The approach greatly extends the use of a traditional multibody dynamics solver.

A caution to James on the bonded contact; be wary of the stiffness of the bonded contact.  I have seen errors in a clamped-clamped beam that was held together ~L/3 by bonded contact.  Long story for why we did that ...  The model's first bending mode was not the correct traditional first bending mode but was an S-shaped mode because the stiffness of the bonding elements tying the beam was abnormally high.  Perhaps multiple issues in one example - but, something to consider.

Alan Baker
Sr. Manager, T55 Growth Mechanical Systems, Shafting, and Dynamics
Engine Systems & Component Analysis
Honeywell | Aerospace
Office:  480.293.2059
alan.baker2@honeywell.com

> Are 'flexible bodies' what once were known as 'substructures?' 'Flexible bodies' are an ADAMS thing where you replace a normally rigid body with a stiffness/mass/modal representation of the part. Being a Component Modal Synthesis representation, the body must be linear. The interfaces with said body can be nonlinear. The approach greatly extends the use of a traditional multibody dynamics solver. A caution to James on the bonded contact; be wary of the stiffness of the bonded contact. I have seen errors in a clamped-clamped beam that was held together ~L/3 by bonded contact. Long story for why we did that ... The model's first bending mode was not the correct traditional first bending mode but was an S-shaped mode because the stiffness of the bonding elements tying the beam was abnormally high. Perhaps multiple issues in one example - but, something to consider. Alan Baker Sr. Manager, T55 Growth Mechanical Systems, Shafting, and Dynamics Engine Systems & Component Analysis Honeywell | Aerospace Office:  480.293.2059 alan.baker2@honeywell.com
CW
Christopher Wright
Tue, Jul 19, 2022 5:00 AM

ns.

'Flexible bodies' are an ADAMS thing where you replace a normally rigid body with a stiffness/mass/modal representation of the part.

Sounds like a substructure including he limitations.

Christopher Wright P.E. (ret'd) |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen.
http://www.skypoint.com/members/chrisw/ | John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania (1864)

ns. > > 'Flexible bodies' are an ADAMS thing where you replace a normally rigid body with a stiffness/mass/modal representation of the part. Sounds like a substructure including he limitations. Christopher Wright P.E. (ret'd) |"They couldn't hit an elephant at chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen. http://www.skypoint.com/members/chrisw/ | John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania (1864)
TR
Testi Riccardo
Tue, Jul 19, 2022 6:47 AM

Dear Mr. Wright,
the flexible bodies are built in Adams following the Craig-Bampton method. The first trials were made at the end of the 20th century; I was part of one of the teams who were trying to find a good method to incorporate bodies with distributed flexibility into ADAMS. We started with a pure modal superposition approach, but the modal basis, even if it was quite large, failed to properly represent the body's deformed shape when it was subject to quasi-static loading and its interface points were constrained. So we added a set of "constrained" modes to the basis, obtained by constraining all the dofs at the interfaces except one, where a unit generalized displacement was applied. The resulting deformed shape was called the "constrained" or "static" mode. Repeating the process for each other dof at the interfaces, we got the set of static modes to add to the "traditional" ones. That "hybrid" basis proved to be far better than the original one. That's how flexible bodies are described in ADAMS; in fact, the method has some other numerical tricks to make it more accurate and efficient, but the core elements are the ones I mentioned.

Best regards
Riccardo Testi

Development and Strategies
2 Wheeler Engines Technical Centre
Piaggio & C. S.p.A
Viale Rinaldo Piaggio, 25
56025 Pontedera (Pisa) - ITALY
Phone:  +39 0587 272850
Fax:        +39 0587 272010
Mobile: +39 339 7241918
E-mail:    riccardo.testi@piaggio.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Wright chrisw@skypoint.com
Sent: martedì 19 luglio 2022 07:01
To: XANSYS Mailing List Home xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
Subject: [Xansys] Re: [External] Re: ANSYS to ADAMS with Bonded Contact..

CAUTION:This email originated from outside the Piaggio Group. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

ns.

'Flexible bodies' are an ADAMS thing where you replace a normally rigid body with a stiffness/mass/modal representation of the part.

Sounds like a substructure including he limitations.

Christopher Wright P.E. (ret'd)                        |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
chrisw@skypoint.com                                    | this distance" (last words of Gen.
https://urlsand.esvalabs.com/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skypoint.com%2Fmembers%2Fchrisw%2F&e=d76018bd&h=f18423fd&f=y&p=y      | John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania (1864)


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Dear Mr. Wright, the flexible bodies are built in Adams following the Craig-Bampton method. The first trials were made at the end of the 20th century; I was part of one of the teams who were trying to find a good method to incorporate bodies with distributed flexibility into ADAMS. We started with a pure modal superposition approach, but the modal basis, even if it was quite large, failed to properly represent the body's deformed shape when it was subject to quasi-static loading and its interface points were constrained. So we added a set of "constrained" modes to the basis, obtained by constraining all the dofs at the interfaces except one, where a unit generalized displacement was applied. The resulting deformed shape was called the "constrained" or "static" mode. Repeating the process for each other dof at the interfaces, we got the set of static modes to add to the "traditional" ones. That "hybrid" basis proved to be far better than the original one. That's how flexible bodies are described in ADAMS; in fact, the method has some other numerical tricks to make it more accurate and efficient, but the core elements are the ones I mentioned. Best regards Riccardo Testi --- Development and Strategies 2 Wheeler Engines Technical Centre Piaggio & C. S.p.A Viale Rinaldo Piaggio, 25 56025 Pontedera (Pisa) - ITALY Phone: +39 0587 272850 Fax: +39 0587 272010 Mobile: +39 339 7241918 E-mail: riccardo.testi@piaggio.com -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Wright <chrisw@skypoint.com> Sent: martedì 19 luglio 2022 07:01 To: XANSYS Mailing List Home <xansys-temp@list.xansys.org> Subject: [Xansys] Re: [External] Re: ANSYS to ADAMS with Bonded Contact.. CAUTION:This email originated from outside the Piaggio Group. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. ns. > > 'Flexible bodies' are an ADAMS thing where you replace a normally rigid body with a stiffness/mass/modal representation of the part. Sounds like a substructure including he limitations. Christopher Wright P.E. (ret'd) |"They couldn't hit an elephant at chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen. https://urlsand.esvalabs.com/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skypoint.com%2Fmembers%2Fchrisw%2F&e=d76018bd&h=f18423fd&f=y&p=y | John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania (1864) _______________________________________________ Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org To unsubscribe send an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org If you are receiving too many emails from XANSYS please consider changing account settings to Digest mode which will send a single email per day. Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list
PJ
Patterson, James
Wed, Sep 28, 2022 4:55 PM

Hi,

Noticing a new line in the CNCHECK output labeled “Average target surface length”.  Found this while verifying a version update to ANSYS 2022.1 which is showing slightly different results that we’ve traced to a contact pair.  Anybody know if this is showing a new setting or just reporting something now that’s always been there?

*** NOTE ***                            CP =      7.078  TIME= 09:54:32
Deformable-deformable contact pair identified by real constant set 300
and contact element type 301 has been set up.
Contact algorithm: Augmented Lagrange method
Contact detection at: Gauss integration point
Beam/shell thickness effect is included.
Contact stiffness factor FKN                0.10000
The resulting initial contact stiffness      0.68182E+07
Default penetration tolerance factor FTOLN  0.10000
The resulting penetration tolerance          0.88000E-01
Default opening contact stiffness OPSF will be used.
Default tangent stiffness factor FKT          1.0000
Default elastic slip factor SLTOL            0.50000E-02
The resulting elastic slip tolerance        0.97016E-03
Update contact stiffness at each iteration
Default Max. friction stress TAUMAX          0.10000E+21
Average contact surface length              0.19403
Average contact pair depth                  0.88000
Average target surface length                0.22519
User defined pinball region PINB            0.50000

Thanks,

Jim

[cid:image001.png@01D8D339.8CA6D510]
James J. Patterson, PhD.
Principal Vehicle Systems Engineer
Trailer Commercial Vehicle Systems
2070 Industrial Place S.E.  Canton, OH 44707
ph. 330 489 0095  |  fax 330 489 1961
jpatterson@hendrickson-intl.commailto:jpatterson@hendrickson-intl.com
www.hendrickson-intl.com

The contents of this message may be privileged and confidential. Therefore, if this message has been received in error, please delete it without reading it. Your receipt of this message is not intended to waive any applicable privilege. Please do not disseminate this message without the permission of the author.

Hi, Noticing a new line in the CNCHECK output labeled “Average target surface length”. Found this while verifying a version update to ANSYS 2022.1 which is showing slightly different results that we’ve traced to a contact pair. Anybody know if this is showing a new setting or just reporting something now that’s always been there? *** NOTE *** CP = 7.078 TIME= 09:54:32 Deformable-deformable contact pair identified by real constant set 300 and contact element type 301 has been set up. Contact algorithm: Augmented Lagrange method Contact detection at: Gauss integration point Beam/shell thickness effect is included. Contact stiffness factor FKN 0.10000 The resulting initial contact stiffness 0.68182E+07 Default penetration tolerance factor FTOLN 0.10000 The resulting penetration tolerance 0.88000E-01 Default opening contact stiffness OPSF will be used. Default tangent stiffness factor FKT 1.0000 Default elastic slip factor SLTOL 0.50000E-02 The resulting elastic slip tolerance 0.97016E-03 Update contact stiffness at each iteration Default Max. friction stress TAUMAX 0.10000E+21 Average contact surface length 0.19403 Average contact pair depth 0.88000 Average target surface length 0.22519 User defined pinball region PINB 0.50000 Thanks, Jim [cid:image001.png@01D8D339.8CA6D510] James J. Patterson, PhD. Principal Vehicle Systems Engineer Trailer Commercial Vehicle Systems 2070 Industrial Place S.E. Canton, OH 44707 ph. 330 489 0095 | fax 330 489 1961 jpatterson@hendrickson-intl.com<mailto:jpatterson@hendrickson-intl.com> www.hendrickson-intl.com The contents of this message may be privileged and confidential. Therefore, if this message has been received in error, please delete it without reading it. Your receipt of this message is not intended to waive any applicable privilege. Please do not disseminate this message without the permission of the author.