Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
Hi All,
This is sort of a lost art. I think it ought to pretty easy, but can't crack it. I'd like to model an axisymmetric shaft with something like PLANE25 elements and apply non-axisymmetric loads like an over turning moment on one end or a vertical shear on one end. I've modeled this expanding the model out in 3D, but we'd like to do studies and 2D could be a lot faster.
I've played around with static and harmonic analysis using the MODE command mode,1,1. It will solve but the results aren't correct. Also, I would think I can expand the plotting of the results 360 degrees. I've tried the /EXPAND command with no success.
Hoping some one can point me in the right direction.
Thanks,
Dan Bohlen
Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis
STAR review chairman, military structures
NGP2 engine focal
GE Aerospace
1 Neumann Way
Evendale, OH 45215 USA
Build B90 Column L 3.75
M/D H358 Cell 513-917-3402
Building 200 Desk Phone 3-8816
GE FOCUS: Safety, Quality, Delivery, Cost
"In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming
Hi Dan,
The SOLID272/273 elements can be used to model axisymmetric parts with non-axisymmetric loads. There is good example in the Tech Demo guide on this.
https://ansyshelp.ansys.com/account/secured?returnurl=/Views/Secured/corp/v232/en/ans_tec/tecrotordyn.html
Harish Radhakrishnan
Product Manager, Mechanical Products
+1 (281)717-1598
-----Original Message-----
From: Bohlen, Dan (GE Aerospace, US) dan.bohlen@ge.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 7:09 AM
Subject: [Xansys] Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
[External Sender]
Hi All,
This is sort of a lost art. I think it ought to pretty easy, but can't crack it. I'd like to model an axisymmetric shaft with something like PLANE25 elements and apply non-axisymmetric loads like an over turning moment on one end or a vertical shear on one end. I've modeled this expanding the model out in 3D, but we'd like to do studies and 2D could be a lot faster.
I've played around with static and harmonic analysis using the MODE command mode,1,1. It will solve but the results aren't correct. Also, I would think I can expand the plotting of the results 360 degrees. I've tried the /EXPAND command with no success.
Hoping some one can point me in the right direction.
Thanks,
Dan Bohlen
Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis
STAR review chairman, military structures
NGP2 engine focal
GE Aerospace
1 Neumann Way
Evendale, OH 45215 USA
Build B90 Column L 3.75
M/D H358 Cell 513-917-3402
Building 200 Desk Phone 3-8816
GE FOCUS: Safety, Quality, Delivery, Cost
"In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming
Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org To unsubscribe send an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org If you are receiving too many emails from XANSYS please consider changing account settings to Digest mode which will send a single email per day.
Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list
Thanks, but that looks like modal analysis - looking to do static stress.
-----Original Message-----
From: Harish Radhakrishnan harish.radhakrishnan@ansys.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 8:58 AM
To: XANSYS Mailing List Home xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
Subject: EXT: [Xansys] Re: Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
WARNING: This email originated from outside of GE. Please validate the sender's email address before clicking on links or attachments as they may not be safe.
Hi Dan,
The SOLID272/273 elements can be used to model axisymmetric parts with non-axisymmetric loads. There is good example in the Tech Demo guide on this.
https://ansyshelp.ansys.com/account/secured?returnurl=/Views/Secured/corp/v232/en/ans_tec/tecrotordyn.html
Harish Radhakrishnan
Product Manager, Mechanical Products
+1 (281)717-1598
-----Original Message-----
From: Bohlen, Dan (GE Aerospace, US) dan.bohlen@ge.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 7:09 AM
Subject: [Xansys] Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
[External Sender]
Hi All,
This is sort of a lost art. I think it ought to pretty easy, but can't crack it. I'd like to model an axisymmetric shaft with something like PLANE25 elements and apply non-axisymmetric loads like an over turning moment on one end or a vertical shear on one end. I've modeled this expanding the model out in 3D, but we'd like to do studies and 2D could be a lot faster.
I've played around with static and harmonic analysis using the MODE command mode,1,1. It will solve but the results aren't correct. Also, I would think I can expand the plotting of the results 360 degrees. I've tried the /EXPAND command with no success.
Hoping some one can point me in the right direction.
Thanks,
Dan Bohlen
Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis
STAR review chairman, military structures
NGP2 engine focal
GE Aerospace
1 Neumann Way
Evendale, OH 45215 USA
Build B90 Column L 3.75
M/D H358 Cell 513-917-3402
Building 200 Desk Phone 3-8816
GE FOCUS: Safety, Quality, Delivery, Cost
"In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming
Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org To unsubscribe send an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org If you are receiving too many emails from XANSYS please consider changing account settings to Digest mode which will send a single email per day.
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Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list
Sorry, I had meant to add another example also but missed. Here is one using the General Axisymmetric elements on a nonlinear transient analysis. They are quite versatile and can be used in Static, Transient, Modal etc. They can also be connected to 3D solid elements if needed.
Harish Radhakrishnan
Product Manager, Mechanical Products
+1 (281)717-1598
-----Original Message-----
From: Bohlen, Dan (GE Aerospace, US) dan.bohlen@ge.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 8:29 AM
To: XANSYS Mailing List Home xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
Subject: [Xansys] Re: Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
[External Sender]
Thanks, but that looks like modal analysis - looking to do static stress.
-----Original Message-----
From: Harish Radhakrishnan harish.radhakrishnan@ansys.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 8:58 AM
To: XANSYS Mailing List Home xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
Subject: EXT: [Xansys] Re: Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
WARNING: This email originated from outside of GE. Please validate the sender's email address before clicking on links or attachments as they may not be safe.
Hi Dan,
The SOLID272/273 elements can be used to model axisymmetric parts with non-axisymmetric loads. There is good example in the Tech Demo guide on this.
https://ansyshelp.ansys.com/account/secured?returnurl=/Views/Secured/corp/v232/en/ans_tec/tecrotordyn.html
Harish Radhakrishnan
Product Manager, Mechanical Products
+1 (281)717-1598
-----Original Message-----
From: Bohlen, Dan (GE Aerospace, US) dan.bohlen@ge.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 7:09 AM
Subject: [Xansys] Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
[External Sender]
Hi All,
This is sort of a lost art. I think it ought to pretty easy, but can't crack it. I'd like to model an axisymmetric shaft with something like PLANE25 elements and apply non-axisymmetric loads like an over turning moment on one end or a vertical shear on one end. I've modeled this expanding the model out in 3D, but we'd like to do studies and 2D could be a lot faster.
I've played around with static and harmonic analysis using the MODE command mode,1,1. It will solve but the results aren't correct. Also, I would think I can expand the plotting of the results 360 degrees. I've tried the /EXPAND command with no success.
Hoping some one can point me in the right direction.
Thanks,
Dan Bohlen
Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis
STAR review chairman, military structures
NGP2 engine focal
GE Aerospace
1 Neumann Way
Evendale, OH 45215 USA
Build B90 Column L 3.75
M/D H358 Cell 513-917-3402
Building 200 Desk Phone 3-8816
GE FOCUS: Safety, Quality, Delivery, Cost
"In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming
Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org To unsubscribe send an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org If you are receiving too many emails from XANSYS please consider changing account settings to Digest mode which will send a single email per day.
Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list _______________________________________________
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Thanks.
Any simple examples like a cylindrical tube in bending?
-----Original Message-----
From: Harish Radhakrishnan harish.radhakrishnan@ansys.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 9:33 AM
To: XANSYS Mailing List Home xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
Subject: EXT: [Xansys] Re: Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
WARNING: This email originated from outside of GE. Please validate the sender's email address before clicking on links or attachments as they may not be safe.
Sorry, I had meant to add another example also but missed. Here is one using the General Axisymmetric elements on a nonlinear transient analysis. They are quite versatile and can be used in Static, Transient, Modal etc. They can also be connected to 3D solid elements if needed.
Harish Radhakrishnan
Product Manager, Mechanical Products
+1 (281)717-1598
-----Original Message-----
From: Bohlen, Dan (GE Aerospace, US) dan.bohlen@ge.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 8:29 AM
To: XANSYS Mailing List Home xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
Subject: [Xansys] Re: Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
[External Sender]
Thanks, but that looks like modal analysis - looking to do static stress.
-----Original Message-----
From: Harish Radhakrishnan harish.radhakrishnan@ansys.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 8:58 AM
To: XANSYS Mailing List Home xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
Subject: EXT: [Xansys] Re: Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
WARNING: This email originated from outside of GE. Please validate the sender's email address before clicking on links or attachments as they may not be safe.
Hi Dan,
The SOLID272/273 elements can be used to model axisymmetric parts with non-axisymmetric loads. There is good example in the Tech Demo guide on this.
https://ansyshelp.ansys.com/account/secured?returnurl=/Views/Secured/corp/v232/en/ans_tec/tecrotordyn.html
Harish Radhakrishnan
Product Manager, Mechanical Products
+1 (281)717-1598
-----Original Message-----
From: Bohlen, Dan (GE Aerospace, US) dan.bohlen@ge.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 7:09 AM
Subject: [Xansys] Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
[External Sender]
Hi All,
This is sort of a lost art. I think it ought to pretty easy, but can't crack it. I'd like to model an axisymmetric shaft with something like PLANE25 elements and apply non-axisymmetric loads like an over turning moment on one end or a vertical shear on one end. I've modeled this expanding the model out in 3D, but we'd like to do studies and 2D could be a lot faster.
I've played around with static and harmonic analysis using the MODE command mode,1,1. It will solve but the results aren't correct. Also, I would think I can expand the plotting of the results 360 degrees. I've tried the /EXPAND command with no success.
Hoping some one can point me in the right direction.
Thanks,
Dan Bohlen
Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis
STAR review chairman, military structures
NGP2 engine focal
GE Aerospace
1 Neumann Way
Evendale, OH 45215 USA
Build B90 Column L 3.75
M/D H358 Cell 513-917-3402
Building 200 Desk Phone 3-8816
GE FOCUS: Safety, Quality, Delivery, Cost
"In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming
Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org To unsubscribe send an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org If you are receiving too many emails from XANSYS please consider changing account settings to Digest mode which will send a single email per day.
Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list _______________________________________________
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Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list
Hi Dan,
As an axisymetric model involves that everything is axisymetric, it absolutly needs an axisymetric load / BC.
So the key is « Can you decompose a load that is non-axi into a sum of axi loads ? ».
I remember this kind of problem with a SOL101 Nastran problem I was giving to my students in the early 2000’s : glass of wine pinched, so we decomposed the pinching pressure (non-axi but distributed like p0cos(theta)) into Fourier’s series…
Benjamin HAGEGE associate prof. UTC (France)
Le 1 nov. 2023 à 13:09, Bohlen, Dan (GE Aerospace, US) dan.bohlen@ge.com a écrit :
Hi All,
This is sort of a lost art. I think it ought to pretty easy, but can't crack it. I'd like to model an axisymmetric shaft with something like PLANE25 elements and apply non-axisymmetric loads like an over turning moment on one end or a vertical shear on one end. I've modeled this expanding the model out in 3D, but we'd like to do studies and 2D could be a lot faster.
I've played around with static and harmonic analysis using the MODE command mode,1,1. It will solve but the results aren't correct. Also, I would think I can expand the plotting of the results 360 degrees. I've tried the /EXPAND command with no success.
Hoping some one can point me in the right direction.
Thanks,
Dan Bohlen
Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis
STAR review chairman, military structures
NGP2 engine focal
GE Aerospace
1 Neumann Way
Evendale, OH 45215 USA
Build B90 Column L 3.75
M/D H358 Cell 513-917-3402
Building 200 Desk Phone 3-8816
GE FOCUS: Safety, Quality, Delivery, Cost
"In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming
Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
To unsubscribe send an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org
If you are receiving too many emails from XANSYS please consider changing account settings to Digest mode which will send a single email per day.
Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list
Back in 1985, at the second Ansys users conference, I presented a paper on roller bearing loads on axisymmetric structures where back then, I had to simulate roller bearing loads by decomposing them into Fourier series in “/PREP6” (yes, there used to be a PREP6 in addition to PREP7). The key here is the structure is to be “axi-symmetric. The second important thing here is that when you expand your load into Fourier series, are you taking enough terms in Fourier series so that you are representing your loads 99-100% because if you take too few number of terms in Fourier series, you may not be loading the axisymmetric structure to full 100% of the load! Therefore, there needs to be a check to make sure enough terms in Fourier series are taken so that the full load is accounted for (this may have to be done outside of Ansys; also check your reaction forces).
Again, it is a valid approach as long as:
- Structure is axisymmetric
- Load is harmonic/periodic (and can be represented by Fourier series expansion)
- Enough Fourier series terms are taken to represent the full load on the structure.
The last item above is really the fact that if you have concentrated loads (or forces) that are applied say at every 20 degrees around the axisymmetric structure, then this may not be the right approach because it will take you thousands of Fourier series terms to be able to represent local loads (You may as well go to a 3D slice model). This methodology works well when you have these periodic loads “nicely distributed” around the circumference meaning that you can take a few Fourier series terms to represent these loads.
To be able to answer Dan’s question, we need more information on:
- Is the structure truly axisymmetric
- Are the load truly harmonic/periodic around the axis of symmetry or non-axisymmetric
- What is the expected structural behavior? (Axisymmetric or not)
If it is a simple bending problem, then you may want to take a look at VM43 in APDL Verification Manual…
Metin Ozen, Ph.D., ASME Fellow
Principal/CEO
Ozen Engineering, Inc. - Ansys Elite Channel Partner
America’s Channel Partner of the Year: 2015, 2018, 2021
Phone: 800-832-3767 Email: metin@ozeninc.commailto:metin@ozeninc.com
1210 E Arques Ave., #207, Sunnyvale, CA 94085
[signature_229924829]
All customers can access our Help Center Knowledge Basehttps://support.ozeninc.com/help-center and submit technical support tickets through our Customer Portalhttps://support.ozeninc.com/portal.
From: Benjamin HAGEGE Benjamin.HAGEGE@UTC.fr
Date: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 10:54 PM
To: XANSYS Mailing List Home xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
Subject: [Xansys] Re: Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
[You don't often get email from benjamin.hagege@utc.fr. Learn why this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ]
Hi Dan,
As an axisymetric model involves that everything is axisymetric, it absolutly needs an axisymetric load / BC.
So the key is « Can you decompose a load that is non-axi into a sum of axi loads ? ».
I remember this kind of problem with a SOL101 Nastran problem I was giving to my students in the early 2000’s : glass of wine pinched, so we decomposed the pinching pressure (non-axi but distributed like p0cos(theta)) into Fourier’s series…
Benjamin HAGEGE associate prof. UTC (France)
Le 1 nov. 2023 à 13:09, Bohlen, Dan (GE Aerospace, US) dan.bohlen@ge.com a écrit :
Hi All,
This is sort of a lost art. I think it ought to pretty easy, but can't crack it. I'd like to model an axisymmetric shaft with something like PLANE25 elements and apply non-axisymmetric loads like an over turning moment on one end or a vertical shear on one end. I've modeled this expanding the model out in 3D, but we'd like to do studies and 2D could be a lot faster.
I've played around with static and harmonic analysis using the MODE command mode,1,1. It will solve but the results aren't correct. Also, I would think I can expand the plotting of the results 360 degrees. I've tried the /EXPAND command with no success.
Hoping some one can point me in the right direction.
Thanks,
Dan Bohlen
Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis
STAR review chairman, military structures
NGP2 engine focal
GE Aerospace
1 Neumann Way
Evendale, OH 45215 USA
Build B90 Column L 3.75
M/D H358 Cell 513-917-3402
Building 200 Desk Phone 3-8816
GE FOCUS: Safety, Quality, Delivery, Cost
"In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming
Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
To unsubscribe send an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org
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Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list
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To unsubscribe send an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org
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Hi All,
I actually got some great insights looking at VM140. I think I have it now.
Thanks,
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Metin Ozen metin@ozeninc.com
Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2023 12:31 AM
To: XANSYS Mailing List Home xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
Subject: EXT: [Xansys] Re: Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads
WARNING: This email originated from outside of GE. Please validate the sender's email address before clicking on links or attachments as they may not be safe.
Back in 1985, at the second Ansys users conference, I presented a paper on roller bearing loads on axisymmetric structures where back then, I had to simulate roller bearing loads by decomposing them into Fourier series in “/PREP6” (yes, there used to be a PREP6 in addition to PREP7). The key here is the structure is to be “axi-symmetric. The second important thing here is that when you expand your load into Fourier series, are you taking enough terms in Fourier series so that you are representing your loads 99-100% because if you take too few number of terms in Fourier series, you may not be loading the axisymmetric structure to full 100% of the load! Therefore, there needs to be a check to make sure enough terms in Fourier series are taken so that the full load is accounted for (this may have to be done outside of Ansys; also check your reaction forces).
Again, it is a valid approach as long as:
- Structure is axisymmetric
- Load is harmonic/periodic (and can be represented by Fourier series expansion)
- Enough Fourier series terms are taken to represent the full load on the structure.
The last item above is really the fact that if you have concentrated loads (or forces) that are applied say at every 20 degrees around the axisymmetric structure, then this may not be the right approach because it will take you thousands of Fourier series terms to be able to represent local loads (You may as well go to a 3D slice model). This methodology works well when you have these periodic loads “nicely distributed” around the circumference meaning that you can take a few Fourier series terms to represent these loads.
To be able to answer Dan’s question, we need more information on:
- Is the structure truly axisymmetric
- Are the load truly harmonic/periodic around the axis of symmetry or non-axisymmetric
- What is the expected structural behavior? (Axisymmetric or not)
If it is a simple bending problem, then you may want to take a look at VM43 in APDL Verification Manual…
Metin Ozen, Ph.D., ASME Fellow
Principal/CEO
Ozen Engineering, Inc. - Ansys Elite Channel Partner America’s Channel Partner of the Year: 2015, 2018, 2021
Phone: 800-832-3767 Email: metin@ozeninc.commailto:metin@ozeninc.com
1210 E Arques Ave., #207, Sunnyvale, CA 94085 [signature_229924829]
All customers can access our Help Center Knowledge Basehttps://support.ozeninc.com/help-center and submit technical support tickets through our Customer Portalhttps://support.ozeninc.com/portal.
From: Benjamin HAGEGE Benjamin.HAGEGE@UTC.fr
Date: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 10:54 PM
To: XANSYS Mailing List Home xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
Subject: [Xansys] Re: Modeling question. How to model an axisymmetric part with non-axisymmetric loads [You don't often get email from benjamin.hagege@utc.fr. Learn why this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ]
Hi Dan,
As an axisymetric model involves that everything is axisymetric, it absolutly needs an axisymetric load / BC.
So the key is « Can you decompose a load that is non-axi into a sum of axi loads ? ».
I remember this kind of problem with a SOL101 Nastran problem I was giving to my students in the early 2000’s : glass of wine pinched, so we decomposed the pinching pressure (non-axi but distributed like p0cos(theta)) into Fourier’s series…
Benjamin HAGEGE associate prof. UTC (France)
Le 1 nov. 2023 à 13:09, Bohlen, Dan (GE Aerospace, US) dan.bohlen@ge.com a écrit :
Hi All,
This is sort of a lost art. I think it ought to pretty easy, but can't crack it. I'd like to model an axisymmetric shaft with something like PLANE25 elements and apply non-axisymmetric loads like an over turning moment on one end or a vertical shear on one end. I've modeled this expanding the model out in 3D, but we'd like to do studies and 2D could be a lot faster.
I've played around with static and harmonic analysis using the MODE command mode,1,1. It will solve but the results aren't correct. Also, I would think I can expand the plotting of the results 360 degrees. I've tried the /EXPAND command with no success.
Hoping some one can point me in the right direction.
Thanks,
Dan Bohlen
Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis
STAR review chairman, military structures
NGP2 engine focal
GE Aerospace
1 Neumann Way
Evendale, OH 45215 USA
Build B90 Column L 3.75
M/D H358 Cell 513-917-3402
Building 200 Desk Phone 3-8816
GE FOCUS: Safety, Quality, Delivery, Cost
"In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming
Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org To unsubscribe send
an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org If you are receiving too
many emails from XANSYS please consider changing account settings to Digest mode which will send a single email per day.
Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to
xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list
Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org To unsubscribe send an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org If you are receiving too many emails from XANSYS please consider changing account settings to Digest mode which will send a single email per day.
Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list