Cyclic Symmetry Modal Analysis

BD
Bohlen, Dan (GE Aviation, US)
Wed, Aug 10, 2022 12:39 PM

Hi All,

We have a set of results where there are pairs of frequencies.  Every natural frequency has a second, not exactly the same frequency.  A quick look at the mode shapes show some differences between the  two sets of results.    Is this an indicator that something wrong?  Perhaps the constraint equations between the twin models.

Run in Ansys15 classic.  I'll be trying to get into the Class 3 error reports to see if there's a program bug related.

Asking for a friend.

Thanks,

Dan Bohlen
Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis
STAR review chairman, collateral structures
GE Aircraft Engines
1 Neumann Way
Evendale, OH  45215  USA

Build B90 Col. H5  cube BK35-251
M/D H358  Cell  513-917-3402

Building 200 Col. G3  cube BC088  Desk Phone 3-8816

"In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming

Hi All, We have a set of results where there are pairs of frequencies. Every natural frequency has a second, not exactly the same frequency. A quick look at the mode shapes show some differences between the two sets of results. Is this an indicator that something wrong? Perhaps the constraint equations between the twin models. Run in Ansys15 classic. I'll be trying to get into the Class 3 error reports to see if there's a program bug related. Asking for a friend. Thanks, Dan Bohlen Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis STAR review chairman, collateral structures GE Aircraft Engines 1 Neumann Way Evendale, OH 45215 USA Build B90 Col. H5 cube BK35-251 M/D H358 Cell 513-917-3402 Building 200 Col. G3 cube BC088 Desk Phone 3-8816 "In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming
JM
Joe Metrisin
Wed, Aug 10, 2022 12:45 PM

Hi Dan,

If I recall, there was an error on this many years ago in an old version,
which looks like you are running.  I think the issue was with cyclic
symmetry, the duplicate sector wasn't getting the basic sector temperatures
applied to it, so for models with elevated temperatures, the material props
were evaluated at different temperatures between the base sector and
duplicate sector.

Joseph T Metrisin
Structures Lead

Florida Turbine Technologies, Inc
1701 Military Tr. Suite 110 | Jupiter, FL 33458 USA
+1 (561) 427-6346 Office | +1 (772) 834-4156 Mobile
Joe.Metrisin@kratosdefense.com

Visit our website: https://kratosdefense.com

Confidentiality Note:
The information contained in this transmission and any attachments are
proprietary and may be privileged, intended only for the use of the
individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If
you received this communication in error, please delete the message and
immediately notify the sender via the contact information listed above.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bohlen, Dan (GE Aviation, US) dan.bohlen@ge.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2022 8:39 AM
To: XANSYS Mailing List Home xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
Cc: K, Ashok (GE Aviation) Ashok.KA@ge.com; McCann, Mike (GE Aviation, US)
mike.mccann1@ge.com
Subject: [External] - [Xansys] Cyclic Symmetry Modal Analysis

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the
content is safe.

Hi All,

We have a set of results where there are pairs of frequencies.  Every
natural frequency has a second, not exactly the same frequency.  A quick
look at the mode shapes show some differences between the  two sets of
results.    Is this an indicator that something wrong?  Perhaps the
constraint equations between the twin models.

Run in Ansys15 classic.  I'll be trying to get into the Class 3 error
reports to see if there's a program bug related.

Asking for a friend.

Thanks,

Dan Bohlen
Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis
STAR review chairman, collateral structures GE Aircraft Engines
1 Neumann Way
Evendale, OH  45215  USA

Build B90 Col. H5  cube BK35-251
M/D H358  Cell  513-917-3402

Building 200 Col. G3  cube BC088  Desk Phone 3-8816

"In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming


Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org To unsubscribe send an
email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org If you are receiving too many
emails from XANSYS please consider changing account settings to Digest mode
which will send a single email per day.

Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to
xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list

Hi Dan, If I recall, there was an error on this many years ago in an old version, which looks like you are running. I think the issue was with cyclic symmetry, the duplicate sector wasn't getting the basic sector temperatures applied to it, so for models with elevated temperatures, the material props were evaluated at different temperatures between the base sector and duplicate sector. Joseph T Metrisin Structures Lead Florida Turbine Technologies, Inc 1701 Military Tr. Suite 110 | Jupiter, FL 33458 USA +1 (561) 427-6346 Office | +1 (772) 834-4156 Mobile Joe.Metrisin@kratosdefense.com Visit our website: https://kratosdefense.com Confidentiality Note: The information contained in this transmission and any attachments are proprietary and may be privileged, intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you received this communication in error, please delete the message and immediately notify the sender via the contact information listed above. -----Original Message----- From: Bohlen, Dan (GE Aviation, US) <dan.bohlen@ge.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2022 8:39 AM To: XANSYS Mailing List Home <xansys-temp@list.xansys.org> Cc: K, Ashok (GE Aviation) <Ashok.KA@ge.com>; McCann, Mike (GE Aviation, US) <mike.mccann1@ge.com> Subject: [External] - [Xansys] Cyclic Symmetry Modal Analysis CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hi All, We have a set of results where there are pairs of frequencies. Every natural frequency has a second, not exactly the same frequency. A quick look at the mode shapes show some differences between the two sets of results. Is this an indicator that something wrong? Perhaps the constraint equations between the twin models. Run in Ansys15 classic. I'll be trying to get into the Class 3 error reports to see if there's a program bug related. Asking for a friend. Thanks, Dan Bohlen Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis STAR review chairman, collateral structures GE Aircraft Engines 1 Neumann Way Evendale, OH 45215 USA Build B90 Col. H5 cube BK35-251 M/D H358 Cell 513-917-3402 Building 200 Col. G3 cube BC088 Desk Phone 3-8816 "In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming _______________________________________________ Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org To unsubscribe send an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org If you are receiving too many emails from XANSYS please consider changing account settings to Digest mode which will send a single email per day. Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list
EE
Emre ERDEMİR
Wed, Aug 10, 2022 1:26 PM

Hi Dan,

What I saw is, after prestress analysis with more than one load step and
perturbation, program tries to rematch constraint equations of nodes at
cyclic symmetric regions so if it cannot match somehow, this problem
happens with small differences like:
HI1 Mode 1 = 10000.44 Hz
HI1 Mode 2 = 10000.47 Hz

What I do is to solve runs without multiple load steps.

Regards,
Emre Erdemir

On 10 Aug 2022 Wed at 15:42 Bohlen, Dan (GE Aviation, US) dan.bohlen@ge.com
wrote:

Hi All,

We have a set of results where there are pairs of frequencies.  Every
natural frequency has a second, not exactly the same frequency.  A quick
look at the mode shapes show some differences between the  two sets of
results.    Is this an indicator that something wrong?  Perhaps the
constraint equations between the twin models.

Run in Ansys15 classic.  I'll be trying to get into the Class 3 error
reports to see if there's a program bug related.

Asking for a friend.

Thanks,

Dan Bohlen
Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis
STAR review chairman, collateral structures
GE Aircraft Engines
1 Neumann Way
Evendale, OH  45215  USA

Build B90 Col. H5  cube BK35-251
M/D H358  Cell  513-917-3402

Building 200 Col. G3  cube BC088  Desk Phone 3-8816

"In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming


Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org
To unsubscribe send an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org
If you are receiving too many emails from XANSYS please consider changing
account settings to Digest mode which will send a single email per day.

Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to
xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list

--
Emre ERDEMİR

Hi Dan, What I saw is, after prestress analysis with more than one load step and perturbation, program tries to rematch constraint equations of nodes at cyclic symmetric regions so if it cannot match somehow, this problem happens with small differences like: HI1 Mode 1 = 10000.44 Hz HI1 Mode 2 = 10000.47 Hz What I do is to solve runs without multiple load steps. Regards, Emre Erdemir On 10 Aug 2022 Wed at 15:42 Bohlen, Dan (GE Aviation, US) <dan.bohlen@ge.com> wrote: > Hi All, > > We have a set of results where there are pairs of frequencies. Every > natural frequency has a second, not exactly the same frequency. A quick > look at the mode shapes show some differences between the two sets of > results. Is this an indicator that something wrong? Perhaps the > constraint equations between the twin models. > > Run in Ansys15 classic. I'll be trying to get into the Class 3 error > reports to see if there's a program bug related. > > Asking for a friend. > > Thanks, > > Dan Bohlen > Senior Engineer, Stress Analysis > STAR review chairman, collateral structures > GE Aircraft Engines > 1 Neumann Way > Evendale, OH 45215 USA > > Build B90 Col. H5 cube BK35-251 > M/D H358 Cell 513-917-3402 > > Building 200 Col. G3 cube BC088 Desk Phone 3-8816 > > "In God we trust, all others bring data." W Edwards Deming > > > _______________________________________________ > Xansys mailing list -- xansys-temp@list.xansys.org > To unsubscribe send an email to xansys-temp-leave@list.xansys.org > If you are receiving too many emails from XANSYS please consider changing > account settings to Digest mode which will send a single email per day. > > Please send administrative requests such as deletion from XANSYS to > xansys-mod@tynecomp.co.uk and not to the list > -- Emre ERDEMİR
CW
Christopher Wright
Wed, Aug 10, 2022 7:56 PM

On Aug 10, 2022, at 7:39 AM, Bohlen, Dan (GE Aviation, US) dan.bohlen@ge.com wrote:

Is this an indicator that something wrong?  Perhaps the constraint equations between the twin models.

If I read you correctly, you have a model with two pretty much identical parts. Ideally the two pieces would have the same frequency and they'd have a single eigenvector. But they never do. I ran into this from time to time with models that had identical components. Like a ladder a bunch of identical rungs  I think it's just an issue with the mathematics of mode extraction. It'd be interesting to see what happens when you change the method ANSYS uses for mode extraction.

Christopher Wright P.E. (ret'd) |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen.
http://www.skypoint.com/members/chrisw/ | John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania (1864)

> On Aug 10, 2022, at 7:39 AM, Bohlen, Dan (GE Aviation, US) <dan.bohlen@ge.com> wrote: > > Is this an indicator that something wrong? Perhaps the constraint equations between the twin models. If I read you correctly, you have a model with two pretty much identical parts. Ideally the two pieces would have the same frequency and they'd have a single eigenvector. But they never do. I ran into this from time to time with models that had identical components. Like a ladder a bunch of identical rungs I think it's just an issue with the mathematics of mode extraction. It'd be interesting to see what happens when you change the method ANSYS uses for mode extraction. Christopher Wright P.E. (ret'd) |"They couldn't hit an elephant at chrisw@skypoint.com | this distance" (last words of Gen. http://www.skypoint.com/members/chrisw/ | John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania (1864)